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Occasional Advisor
Textaxguy
Posts: 13
Registered: 02-16-2011

Fairtax vs.. Flat Tax

I believe there are only two real players in the race to dramatically simplify the tax code in the United States.  There should be no question among those of us committed to such change that either plan is dramatically better than the system under which we currently find ourselves.  I would like to take this opportunity to discuss the pros and cons of each approach.  Either effort would stand a much better chance of succeeding with the support of the other camp. 

I started life as a flat tax supporter so I can certainly see myself supporting either cause, since at one point or another, I have.  Listed below are a few of the reasons I changed my position.  I would be happy to have anyone add to it or bring up your objections so that we could have a full understanding of the issues that concern each side.  I’m sure we can all learn something from each other if we can keep an open mind.

 

Efficiency – Clearly, efficiency is one of the areas in which the Fairtax excels.  Retailers already collect sales tax in all but a couple of our smallest states, so collecting the Fairtax will be very simple and inexpensive matter indeed.  It costs no more to collect 23% than it does to collect 3%.  Tax returns are no longer required by every business and individual, which will eliminate a mountain of paper received by the IRS annually.  Only businesses engaged at the end-user level will submit a simple statement of total sales and sales tax collections, just like they already do at the state level.

Fairness – Too often, the term wealthy is synonymous with high income.  The fact of the matter is, the truly wealthy in this country often have relatively low taxable incomes.  High income earners are more rightly looked at as high producers.  Any income tax penalizes production and, for the most part, leaves wealth alone.  The Fairtax taxes consumption which is more closely associated with wealth than income.  Right now 100% of income taxes are paid by people who worked for that money in a legal enterprise.  Meanwhile, all of the money generated through tax sheltered investments of the wealthy, illegal activity and outright tax evasion by criminals goes untaxed.  The Fairtax would treat all that money equally at the point of consumption.

Progressivity – Probably the most firmly entrenched dogma I have heard in the tax reform debate is idea that all sales taxes are regressive.  This was actually the last piece to fall into place for me when I switched sides.  The prebate provision in the Fairtax is an ingenious way to provide just the right amount of progressivity without resorting to class warfare which is so prevalent with an income tax.  The beauty is that everyone gets exactly the same benefit, which is the tax on spending up to the poverty level.  This will mean nothing to the rich and at the same time give the poor another opportunity to improve their lot by spending wisely so that they can save even more.  Used goods are exempt from the Fairtax, so not only will people be able to buy used goods and not pay the tax.  This fact will increase the value of used goods, providing more opportunities for lower income individuals to make money by collecting and selling items that can be salvaged.

 Corruptibility – Political careers are built on manipulation of the tax code.  "Special incentives” and plain old loopholes are the life blood of lobbyists and politicians who easily hide these special favors in the vastness of our tax code.  The Fairtax is simple and, most importantly, applies to everyone equally.  All goods and services are, and must remain, taxable in order to prevent manipulation by those who would try and gain influence through such manipulation.

Enforcement – This is the easy part.  Our current system creates over 300 million potential law breakers by making anyone who earns money liable to report and remit taxes on that income to the government.  There are a little over 1.1 million retail establishments in the US.  From which group would you rather collect taxes?

Liberty  - In my mind, the most compelling argument for the Fairtax is the freedom it returns to the American taxpayer.  The burden is no longer on the individual to report the source and amount of funds earned.  The framers of our constitution understood how oppressive such a requirement would be when they specifically forbade the government from the establishment of such taxes.  It was only the empty promise that just the very rich would be subject to an income tax that the 16th Amendment passed thereby removing this protection.  The repeal of the 16th Amendment is such an integral part of the Fairtax that it provides for the Fairtax itself to be abolished if the 16th amendment is not repealed.  That is how committed the authors of this bill are to prevent a situation in which both a sales tax and an income tax could ever coexist.

Submitted by:

Kevin Plunkett

Real Estate Investor

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MikeBlockCPA
Posts: 21
Registered: 02-25-2011
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Re: FairTax vs. Flat Tax

Thank you for a good introduction to the FairTax.

Occasional Collector
JeremiahFT
Posts: 3
Registered: 02-07-2011
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Re: Fairtax vs.. Flat Tax

Great Job.  Love it ! 

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jstacy10
Posts: 28
Registered: 02-25-2011

Re: Fairtax vs.. Flat Tax

Recently my United States Senator switched his support from the FairTax to a flat tax. He was a co-sponsor of the bill at one time. I have been calling his office everyday and now his email is full. He emailed me back and told me that the FairTax would be to hard to get passed and that a flat tax would be easier and just as fair because it would do away with the loop holes for cooperations. This was my reply email. The flat tax does nothing to make the tax code fair because it does not replace the income tax, and it still allows for exemptions which will be able to be manipulated. "A flat tax is easy to convert back into an income tax. The flat tax fully preserves the Internal Revenue Service infrastructure; it is totally dependent upon it. They would administer a system that is not structurally different from the income tax. All individuals and businesses would file tax returns." Also," the most commonly quoted flat tax legislation would reduce the top marginal income tax rate to 17 percent. This rate, however, is NOT REVENUE NEUTRAL. The flat tax is revenue neutral at about 21 to 22 percent. The flat tax would not affect the employer or employee Social Security or Medicare payroll tax. Those that have earnings below the Social Security wage base would, therefore, face a marginal tax rate of 32.3 percent. Taxpayers over the Social Security wage base would face a marginal tax rate of 19.9 percent on wage income and 17 percent on capital income. These figures are about 3 to 5 percentage points higher in a revenue-neutral flat tax." "Under the FairTax, the poor experience negative effective tax rates because of the universal rebate. No American pays any tax on spending up to the poverty level, but this is most telling with the poor. Affluent taxpayers pay 23 percent at the margin. Thus, middle-income taxpayers pay a much lower marginal tax rate under the consumption tax than under the flat tax." I know that ammending the 16th would be hard to get done, anytime you give government control over something it's hard to get it back, but thats what we need. It takes the same amount of votes in congress to pass a flat tax as it does the FairTax, and there are already more co-sponsors of the FairTax. You sponsoring a flat tax is not what we need and you know it. It would just pile more on. Also don't try to play the class war fare game with me about tax breaks for cooperations, you and I both know cooperations don't pay taxes. Raising "cooperate tax rates" just raises the price of the goods and services they produce and we the consumer are left paying those taxes as well. It truly angers me when my elected officials know an idea is good, but wont fight for it because it would be to "hard" to get passed, so instead you jump on board with what you'll try to claim is a similar proposal. Now I know the real reason a flat tax would be easier to pass, because it does nothing to take control away from the government and politicians, like the FairTax does. "The flat tax is simply a way of “resetting” the lobbyist game board so they can reap a new round of profits through endless manipulation of the tax code." Politicians and lobbyists love the idea of the flat tax. I certainly hope that this is not the reason you have had a change of heart sir. The FairTax and a flat tax are like night and day and you know it. I don't mean to come across rude and I thank you for your response, but it is unacceptable. Sincerely, United States Tax Payer
Moderator
CplTony
Posts: 102
Registered: 02-25-2011

Re: Fairtax vs.. Flat Tax

Flat tax in my opinion is a poor mans excuse for reform.

 

a) we already have a flat tax and we ALL pay it (payroll taxes).

b) the monstrousity we are trying to reform was passed as and started out as a flat tax in 1913

 

Flat tax as a reform is nothing more than a reset of the current system which 'WILL' be once again 'tinkered' with by Washington and will come right back again...quicker than it took to get to where we are now.

 

The key to tax reform is getting government OUT of our paychecks.

If withholdings were removed and everyone had to pay their taxes after the funds were in their account....true reform would happen overnight.

 

An example of the power of politics behind the flat tax is Glenn Beck.

Some of you may recall when he started the 912 Project....when the site began he had a poll and tax reform, more importantly 'Pass the FairTax' was an option that came in very high on the charts.

Ask Glenn Beck about it now....'I'm so sick of hearing about the FairTax' and he now prefers a flat tax.

Yet his knowledge of history would clearly show we started out with a flat tax....so to me that contradicts what he preaches every day. What changed?

 

Enter 'Freedom Works'......**bleep** Armey.....and the flat tax bunch....who he supports on his radio show.

 

Flat Tax

Those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat it

 

jstacy....I believe you are talking about Jim Inhofe of Oklahoma, correct?

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CaseyElliott
Posts: 3
Registered: 02-25-2011

Re: Fairtax vs.. Flat Tax

Don't lose sight of the fact that the FairTax is subject to "tinkering" as well.  The law must include draconian limits on how the Fairtax is amended and administered. 

Moderator
CplTony
Posts: 102
Registered: 02-25-2011

Re: Fairtax vs.. Flat Tax

Oh I understand, but any law is subject to tinkering.

 

The people must understand that the FairTax is not a 'fix everything about taxes' bill.

Our representatives must still be held accountable.

 

Under the FairTax any change would affect every single consumer in the nation and thus government cannot seperate us as they do now into tax brackets.

Unless government once again tries to pass changes to enact social engineering, but again it is up to we the people to hold them accounable.

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jstacy10
Posts: 28
Registered: 02-25-2011
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Re: Fairtax vs.. Flat Tax

Yes I am referring to Senator Inhofe.
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CplTony
Posts: 102
Registered: 02-25-2011
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Re: Fairtax vs.. Flat Tax

Then you got my e-mail blast, fantastic!!

 

He was a co-sponsor in the past but his move towards the flat tax because it would be 'easier' is really disappointing.

If we wanted the easy route we'd have taken it....but no we want what's best.

It's only the difficult route because representatives like Inhofe make it difficult.

 

Calling his office now...left a voice mail for Kathleen Moody (I believe).

He has dropped his support, that much is clear.

Even if the flat tax would be easier, why not support both?

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MJkatzTheWriter
Posts: 1
Registered: 02-26-2011
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Re: Fairtax vs.. Flat Tax

What's the chance of a Fair Tax actually replacing the present federal income tax system?

 

  • First of all, I initially liked the idea of the Flat Tax until I found that many hidden tax costs to the Manufacturer would remain in effect...which would mean that these expenses would still be passed down to us. 
  • With the Fair Tax, this wouldn't happen.  But since so much 'politics' is involved with our present federal income tax system, why would politicians want to abolish a system that they enjoy great leverage and power with?  I'm sure there are plenty of politicians and lobbying groups that would oppose this new Fair Tax system.  Are we just whistling in the wind?